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How has the most recent FAQ affected your Chaos lists?

While I realize I am a little biased, it feels like the changes to deep strike rules hit Chaos the hardest - especially considering Tide of Traitors is now one-use-only.

I'll start, I run 3 Black Legion lists that are constructed like this (each takes Abaddon):

- Cultist Bomb: 160 Cultists, 3 squads of Obliterators.

- Noise Marine Bomb: 2 Squads of Noise Marines, 1 Kharbydis Assault Claw, a Sorcerer, 2 Maulerfiends.

- Gunline: 22 Lascannons, 3 Predators, 3 10 man squads of Chaos Space Marines.

I've now played them all in friendly games and am feeling the impact.

The Cultist Bomb suffers from the ToT restriction. I used to march the Cultists up the board and use ToT to walk onto objectives starting on Turn 3. Since there are no morale checks to make because of Abaddon, it was very hard for opponents to kill even a single unit. Now that's changed. The units march up the board, taking a lot of casualties, then swarm my opponent's lines. My Obliterators now come in turn 2, but it's a lot harder to get into position to shoot up tanks. There's a lot of melee, which takes a lot of time to resolve, and it's not a clear winner. While I won the game I played, it's such a big change to playstyle, I would be hesitant to use this list again.

The Noise Marine Bomb suffers from the Warptime restrictions and the landing zone restrictions. Instead of landing turn one, the KAC has to come in turn 2. The Noise Marines still shoot up screens but the KAC cannot move once it has arrived. This means it's taking a lot of shots from tanks because I can't use Warptime to bypass screens / get into position for a charge. I'm finding the Noise Marines take a lot more wounds, the KAC gets shot up before it can do much, and the Maulerfiends are easier for opponents to deal with because they have more bodies in screening units. The big threat is gone. While I would still play this list, it's not going to be as effective as it was.

The Gunline works better now than it did before. What I'm finding is opponents are trying to use LOS blocking terrain far more frequently than before, but they don't seem to understand it's easy for a Black Legion army to shift 6 inches to get a better angle on whatever they need to shoot. While I used to deal with a lot of beta strikes, it's more like I don't need to worry much about assaults until turn 3 - the big stuff is already on the table for the lascannons to shoot at. It's a lot more easy to turtle with this army, and the LOS blocking terrain affects opponents more than my Black Legion units.

I'm thinking it's time to replace the Cultist bomb with something more focused on speed, and start looking at Daemon detachments. I'm feeling like Bikes / Heldrakes need to be on the table more often, and Daemonettes need to be deep striking early game to tie up screens. Not to kill them, but to pull them out of position to make room for other units.

Thoughts?

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That is a lot of lascannon.  Lists like this are the reason I don't use many vehicles.  

I do like the heldrakes ability to put pressure on any poorly placed characters.

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Heldrakes in general are making a resurgence, I think.  The lascannon list surprises me a bit, because they're not very common (at the moment).

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Here's my Black Legion Gunline list. Along with a huge, obnoxious description of how it works and my anxieties about Tau.

The other lascannons come from the CSMs (who get 2 at 10 models) and the Helbrutes (2 each.) I can technically scale up to 26 lascannons at 2000 points, but that's almost always overkill (except when I know I'm hunting Titans.) It's not uncommon for it to do 40+ wounds a turn shooting at 48 inches and 70+ at 24 inches. The last game I played was against Custodes with 3 Shield Captains and I tabled my opponent turn 4.

I also play a variant where I sub the Predators for Scorpius tanks and the Helbrutes for Decimators. While I realize the mathhammer heavily favors the lascannons, in practice opponents have a much harder time against it because of the indirect fire and the automatic hits for mortal wounds.

Like I said before, not much has changed for this list post-FAQ. I am concerned about ongoing changes to the meta, and realize there are probably bigger, badder gunlines out there. Still looking for a list that can harass other gunlines as well as pack some punch against long-range AV. Basilisks, in particular, bother me.

 

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I have a hard time seeing big gun lines come to the table.  Drukhari just doesn't allow for that sort of thing.  Or Orks for that matter.  And I think that's why lists like that are not terribly common lately - the 22 lascannons have nothing to shoot against green tide and they're no more effective than autocannons or assault cannons vs raiders and venoms.

Once Orks get their update and potential point drops, stratagems, and traits the tide (hehe) will change considerably.  Harlequins as might be able to get stuck in before you can bring down enough transports, too.  

You do have combat protection with Abby and the DP, but you're not flexible for other scenarios.  And even if you did have a drop element you don't have a good way to clear chaff so it would need to be a self sufficient shooty unit like oblits.  You could drop  a predator and helbrute for ~5 of them and still be very strong turn 1.

What kind of ruleset do you play? Maelstrom? ITC?  How does holding objectives work when moving is mostly detrimental to the list?

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I would have thought the same, but they hold their own against Ork hordes. I'm 2 for 4 with one tabling (him, not me.)

There's no grand strategy to it, just shoot up the Lootas / Dakkajets in the first turn, then peel off models from the Boys mobs. I'm usually getting at least 2 turns to shoot without any serious response, meaning about 40 Orks are leaving the table before they can strike back. The good thing about lacannons versus Orks is they kill what they hit, so it's not hard to take 20 models off the board for a couple turns.

When they get close enough to charge, they are charging Cultists, who are either going to die or fall back. Then they are facing 60 Bolter shots, followed by a charge from the CSMs (with everything rerolling misses), followed by combat with all 4 beatsticks. The Lasher Tendrils on the Helbrutes do an especially good job cleaning up hordes. There's usually only a few of models near my lines before turn 3 and there's plenty there to deal with Stormboys.

The lists I've lost to included Bikes, which are not very common in the Ork meta. They won because they were able to get past my screens and shut down most of my shooting early game, which is something I think I could counter with a different deployment.

But Drukhari and Tau really scare me. I haven't played either since they got their Codexes and really don't know what to expect. There are a couple competitive Tau players in my local meta, and I have a feeling they would have their way with this list.

I play mostly Chapter Approved missions and roll off before every game, like any other player. I don't play ITC. Regarding objectives, my strategy is usually denial. When my army is properly deployed, it's usually covering 2 objectives by turn two, with all infantry conga-lined back to Abaddon. By contrast, as soon as I'm done with tanks, I'm gunning down opponent's units near objectives. While he might have an advantage for a turn or two, I usually have the firepower to knock him off from range or the bodies to march up the board and take it from him. There's also Tide of Traitors, I've won games by just walking Cultists onto objectives in the 5th turn.

Moving does not have a huge impact on the effectiveness of this list. Hitting on a 4 is not that hard when you are rerolling all shots, and wounds are almost automatic against anything but a tank. There aren't that many things with good saves versus lascannons, and the distribution of lascannons over so many units makes it hard for powers like Doom to sink my ranged shooting. The Cultists are very important as well, I have their placement down to a science and try to make the most out of screens. The models are always 1.5 inches away from each other and 3 inches away from the rest of my army, so I can pull models to get the unit out of combat without risking a consolidation move into other units. When they die, I have the CSMs to fall back on so the Predators / Helbrutes can keep shooting.

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Keeping everything in range of Abby keeps the army pretty tight.  I can see how the bikes could get through with that dynamic.  Raiders will fly over and the usual list has ~18 disintegrators, which is close to 20 marines dead before the splinter weapons kick in.  You don't suffer morale so you have that going for you.

The bigger disconnect between us though is the missions.  If the most flexible you need to be to win points is walking cultists on then the mission isn't dynamic enough.  Of course that is a matter of opinion and preference.  Many of the CA missions are pretty good, but i'd encourage trying ITC.  It's super easy to learn and changes the game considerably.

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Very good points.

I don't play in tournaments and often feel like there's something I'm missing in my game. The lack of familiarity with ITC may be part of that, I just really have a problem with the concept of organized play and what people think it means. While I consider the gunline a very good list, I know there's a much wider world out there.

Mind sharing your TS list? I would be very curious to see what you are running. Also, getting back on topic, how has the FAQ affected it?

 

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Sorry I've been busy writing an app for the site. :classic_biggrin:

I tend to want to deploy more aggressively now since I have a turn to run my screening units out into a buffer zone.  Before I would huddle up with screens 4" in front, etc to keep rubrics from getting caught before they could do anything.

I'm starting to favor summoning more and more and so I've also left a good chunk available to tailor to various scenarios.  Most commonly 20 horrors plus a changecaster.  Drop them in, buff with the mutalith to make the S5 and give them flickering flames for 60 S5 shots wounding any infantry on 2s.

 

Q5DiviX.png

 

 

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